Joined: 11 Aug 2007 Last Visit: 09 Jun 2009 Posts: 102
Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 9:04 pm Post subject: First mention of D&D actually being in print...?
Target to beat, 31st May, 1974; on sale via Miniature Figurines-USA, Inc., Dallas. Will be surprised if the earliest mention is actually via a reseller.
I don't have a copy of The Courier with that 1974 review so have no idea what month that might be.
(In fact, any 1974/early 1975 mention might be worth noting, to be honest, to get a feel for how quickly things spread).
Joined: 15 Jan 2007 Last Visit: 21 Sep 2010 Posts: 802 Location: Rochester, NY
Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 9:18 pm Post subject:
Sounds like a good idea . . . I'll be interested to hear what you guys come up with as I'll have to sit out the research on this one. _________________ "Ah, Blackadder. Started talking to yourself, I see."
"Yes . . . it's the only way I can be assured of intelligent conversation."
Joined: 11 Aug 2007 Last Visit: 09 Jun 2009 Posts: 102
Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 9:43 pm Post subject:
Plaag wrote:
Well question: was there ever an Eastercon brochure/guide in 1973?
To the best of my recollection that was a false lead brought up in the context of the stated pre-pub boxes (which are either all or mostly 1975 staff spares) and still in error on http://www.acaeum.com/ddindexes/setpages/original.html. Flagged several times prior to Tim Kask's confirmation on the status of those boxes, so I'll leave that to Scott...
If there's a kernel of truth in that woodgrain release context, it might be that TSR was selling those after Easter (generally) but that some might've made it out first at an Easter-time convention. (Eastercon = UK SF convention to my brain and cannot find any other obvious reference on that).
Was the theory I was working to, anyhow.
Plaag wrote:
D&D Would have been in print, just not mass market.
ShaneG.
Afaik, the books were not in print until "sometime in 1974". Jon Snider in an April 1974 letter makes no reference to those whatsoever despite his description of the three volumes he was planning to release via Gary Gygax including Star Probe (the third of which was to include 1-1 RPG rules). Might've expected him to say "three booklets, like D&D", I'd've thought in a length letter... (Anyhow, I do have his copies of the (earliest, afaik) 1st print books and those didn't make it out to Blackmoor until early(?) 1974; precise date uncertain, alas).
The pre-release (effectively playtest) rules photocopies are another matter altogether. Only private distribution on those and no idea whatsoever on precise date - still nothing available other than second-hand information in an "accepted history" context.
Joined: 11 Sep 2004 Last Visit: 28 Jun 2013 Posts: 2977 Location: NYC
Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 10:59 pm Post subject:
Perhaps IFW or some of it's special interest group newsletters? What qualifications are we looking for? Simply the words D&D in print elsewhere other than the game itself? _________________
Joined: 11 Aug 2007 Last Visit: 09 Jun 2009 Posts: 102
Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 11:36 pm Post subject:
scribe wrote:
Perhaps IFW or some of it's special interest group newsletters? What qualifications are we looking for? Simply the words D&D in print elsewhere other than the game itself?
Newsletters have indeed been one the best sources thus far for early references in general.
Yep; mention that D&D is actually *in print* and where it's available from, even if that's not a full review of the box set. We've been hedging around this for a long time on various fora without any definitive answers to compliment "received wisdom" and retrospective comments without primary evidence (which should exist still, I'd hope).
If there are any references to D&D /prior to/ publication that would be a separate (intriguing!) category.
Joined: 11 Sep 2004 Last Visit: 28 Jun 2013 Posts: 2977 Location: NYC
Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 12:01 am Post subject:
Stormberg has been after me for some time to go through my IFW collection to look out for certain issues. They are a great resource into some of the early development of fantasy gaming as an aspect of wargaming. I don't know when I will get the time to go through them, but I will try soon. _________________
Joined: 25 Jul 2007 Last Visit: 19 Nov 2024 Posts: 231 Location: Wichita, KS
Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:19 am Post subject:
I would guess that the IFWs and Domesday books would be the most-likely places to get dates for confirming the release of D&D. Early GenCon brochures and registration forms may well also contain such.
By the time Origins I appears on-scene in 1975, D&D is an established event:
1975 Origins I convention program, page 5 wrote:
Dungeons & Dragons: Two trips of 15 players each will commence at each starting time. Registration for this event is now CLOSED. The survivors of the group which claims the most booty will be considered the winners and each will receive a prize from TSR's line of games and rulebooks, consisting of Cavaliers & Roundheads, Dungeons & Dragons, Tractics, Star Probe, Grayhawk [sic], Panzer Warfare, Chainmail, Tricolor, and Warriors of Mars.
Of note, TSR did not exhibit at Origins I, nor did they advertise in the program (other than by contributing prizes). This changed in both cases with Origins II in 1976. _________________ grodog
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Allan Grohe
grodog@gmail.com http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html
Joined: 14 Aug 2006 Last Visit: 16 Nov 2009 Posts: 13
Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 6:33 am Post subject:
Howdy,
scribe wrote:
Stormberg has been after me for some time to go through my IFW collection to look out for certain issues. They are a great resource into some of the early development of fantasy gaming as an aspect of wargaming. I don't know when I will get the time to go through them, but I will try soon.
Sure...
Actually, I didn't want content as much as a simple list of what you have to check and correct my reconstruction of the volumes, issues, and dates.
Joined: 25 Jul 2007 Last Visit: 14 May 2024 Posts: 891 Location: Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 1:45 am Post subject:
I had a number of issues of Lowry's Guidon which was basically their catalog with a few articles thrown in and the first issue of Toy Soldier Color Guard (dec 1974) that bought out Don Lowry's business (?). The span through 1974 does not mention D&D at all. They were still selling Tractics and other Gygax Guidon Games.
Joined: 11 Sep 2004 Last Visit: 28 Jun 2013 Posts: 2977 Location: NYC
Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 4:12 am Post subject:
The Collector's Trove wrote:
Howdy,
scribe wrote:
Stormberg has been after me for some time to go through my IFW collection to look out for certain issues. They are a great resource into some of the early development of fantasy gaming as an aspect of wargaming. I don't know when I will get the time to go through them, but I will try soon.
Sure...
Actually, I didn't want content as much as a simple list of what you have to check and correct my reconstruction of the volumes, issues, and dates.
Futures Bright,
Paul
Ya, I know. I was goofing on myself. So much to do, so little time.
I hope a get some personal time at the house this coming weekend (at least not so much construction sort of time to myself). I will try to pull together all of those zines. For some reason, they made it into 3 different places at two addresses when I first went through them. I will get them together and make a list of Issues/Dates/CoverContent and give them a quick glance for OD&D references, if any. _________________
Joined: 26 Jul 2007 Last Visit: 27 Jan 2009 Posts: 52
Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 10:34 am Post subject:
The Collector's Trove wrote:
Howdy Fellas,
(Making a rare appearance here. Should be working on the Kevin Hendryx auction, or the Dave Cook auction, or the Dennis Sustare auction, or the...)
Raises a glass to that first one, and continues to fiddle with wallet...
harami wrote:
(Anyhow, I do have his copies of the (earliest, afaik) 1st print books...
Care to elaborate on that little nugget, David? Do you mean the earliest 1st print books known to human kind? Or his copies of the earliest version of 1st print books? Intriguing.. _________________ Let mirth prevail!
Joined: 25 Jul 2007 Last Visit: 19 Nov 2024 Posts: 231 Location: Wichita, KS
Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:02 pm Post subject:
The near-complete early run of the first 3-4 years of Wargamer's Digests that I just won arrived today, I'll be going through them for ads and mentions of D&D/etc. I think it's likely that Paul's already done this, so if you have Paul (or anyone else), please chime in and save me some redundant labor! _________________ grodog
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Allan Grohe
grodog@gmail.com http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html
Joined: 12 Sep 2007 Last Visit: 12 Feb 2009 Posts: 56 Location: Berkeley, CA
Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 11:23 pm Post subject:
grodog wrote:
The near-complete early run of the first 3-4 years of Wargamer's Digests that I just won arrived today, I'll be going through them for ads and mentions of D&D/etc. I think it's likely that Paul's already done this, so if you have Paul (or anyone else), please chime in and save me some redundant labor!
I didn't see an ad for D&D before Vol 1 No 8 (Jun 1974), though of course there's the famous article in Vol 1 No 7. The ad for TSR in Vol 1 No 4 (Feb 1974) advertises Cavaliers & Roundheads with a big "New!" - no mention of D&D. Then again my Vol 1 isn't complete, so I may be missing something if it appears in No 5.
The ad in No 8 is notable in so far as it does not emphasize the actual title of the game D&D - it has a large header "Swords & Sorcery", presumably following the title of the article in No 7. You have to read the name of the game off of tiny pictures of the three booklets. Same ad also promotes Tricolor, by the by.
Joined: 12 Sep 2007 Last Visit: 12 Feb 2009 Posts: 56 Location: Berkeley, CA
Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 11:54 pm Post subject: Re: First mention of D&D actually being in print...?
harami wrote:
Target to beat, 31st May, 1974; on sale via Miniature Figurines-USA, Inc., Dallas. Will be surprised if the earliest mention is actually via a reseller.
I don't have a copy of The Courier with that 1974 review so have no idea what month that might be.
(In fact, any 1974/early 1975 mention might be worth noting, to be honest, to get a feel for how quickly things spread).
Thoughts...?
d.
Hendrick's review appears in the Courier VI-6. Like many club newsletters, the publication schedule of the Courier was very erratic - 8 issues per year, often with delays of up to three months and simultaneous publications of multiple issues. They don't even attempt to correlate issues to specific months. So it's difficult to say when this actually was printed. My best guess is quite late in 1974. The first volume of VII actually purports that it came out in January of 1975, which at least suggests a "no later than this."
Joined: 12 Sep 2007 Last Visit: 12 Feb 2009 Posts: 56 Location: Berkeley, CA
Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:56 am Post subject:
Thanks for the welcome! I've known about this site for a while (I think Mars first pointed me to it a couple months ago) and I've been meaning to spend a little time here. Hopefully I can pitch in a bit.
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